Can a Person say that?
Okay, as you can see, I really love Dr. James White. He is a Reformed Baptist, Christian apologist who is the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. He defends the historic Christian faith from Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witness, Islam, as well as atheism. In fact he just entered into a doctoral program in Islamic Studies. He also refutes King James Onlyism as well as defends the Reformed doctrines of Grace. But he is very exegetical in his use of Scriptures, he preaches out of a Greek and Hebrew text instead of an English translation. In the following clip, White plays a portion of a debate he had with Lou Ruggiero on John 6
. Now when the cross-ex (the portion of audio played) turns to Romans 3 and universal guilt, Lou says something that I just can’t fathom any faithful exegete ever saying: Romans 3:17-18 is not speaking of all human beings! I always thought Romans 3:17-18 was textual support draw up by Paul to support Romans 3:9 and that both Jews and Gentiles are all under sin, and therefore God’s wrath. What do you think?
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In response to your question:
“Now when the cross-ex (the portion of audio played) turns to Romans 3
and universal guilt, Lou says something that I just can’t fathom any faithful exegete ever saying: Romans 3:17-18
is not speaking of all human beings! I always thought Romans 3:17-18
was textual support draw up by Paul to support Romans 3:9
?”
Here’s my explanation: What Mr. Ruggiero wanted to convey to Dr. White was this: Romans 3:19,21-22
provides the context of Romans 3:9-18
. It instructs that no person can be righteous under the law because they would be required to obey every single law in order to be considered righteous. If one law is broken, God considers the whole law broken (Galatians 3:10
, James 2:10
). Because of our Adamic nature, righteousness is impossible under the law. This is what is being taught in Romans 3:9-18
. Romans 3:19,21-22
states: “Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God…But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.”
Dr. White was clearly in panic mode when he heard Mr. Ruggiero’s line about the fear of the LORD being a choice (Prov. 1:29
) and a condition for being drawn to the Son by the Father. Was he really clearing his throat during cross-examination, or was he feeling the heat?
Should you have any follow-up questions at all regarding my debate with Dr. White, please feel free to send them through my http://www.kingmessiahproject.com website.
Sincerely,
Louis Ruggiero
That doesn’t address my question to Mr. Ruggiero’s stance on Romans 3:17-18
. It is an OT citation to prove that Gentiles are guilty of sin, as well as Jews. The Gentiles are not under the law-covenant that the Jews were. Paul argues in Romans 1:18-23
that the Gentiles are guilty of idolatry prior to the covenant. So I don’t know how the discussion of trying to be righteous under the law-covenant applies to Gentiles. However, I would agree that no one can be righteous under the law-covenant, indeed that is its purpose, namely to show us our true ugly selves. But the Gentiles are not guilty of violating the law-covenant which they are not under. No Pagan in Gaul during the NT era even knew of the law of Moses and yet Paul still holds that that pagan is guilty of sin and under God’s wrath. So for Mr. Ruggiero to speak of this text as not universal is off of Paul’s thought.
I listened to the clip again and I did not hear Dr. White clear his throat over the line of “fear of the LORD being a choice (Prov. 1:29
). While it is a choice to fear the LORD, White’s assertion that Romans 3:17-18
denies that anyone has done so still stands as Dr. White’s question remained unanswered. I do not know what Dr. White said over Job 1:1
and Job being “blameless and upright.” However I do know this, that Job said in Job 31:33
, “if I have concealed my transgressions as others do by hiding my iniquity in my bosom.” He is implying that he has not concealed his transgressions and hidden his iniquity. He is not a righteous man. Rather Job is a repentant man who trusts in Yahweh to deliver him, and as with the case of Abraham, he was righteous because of his trust in Yahweh for all things.
Dear Hank,
I understand your frustration. White showed his frustration too when I showed him that Proverbs 1:29
instructs that the fear of the LORD is a choice. Further, Proverbs 1:23
begins with the words, “Turn you at my reproof…,” Proverbs 1:24
adds, “Because I have called, and ye refused…” The Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit reproves the world of sin (John 16:8
)and that people can resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51
) thus disproving White’s entire irresistible grace position.
Romans 3:9-18
simply instructs that no one can be righteous by keeping laws because they would have to obey every single law (Gal 3:10
, James 2:10
). It should not be used to prove man’s total inability and complete corruption as White was clearly attempting to do during our debate.
As far as White clearing his throat is concerned, please listen to my cross-examination of him. He was clearly uncomfortable, he didn’t have an answer to the fear of the LORD, and he resorted to ad homs which, as you know, is what some do when they are placed into a corner. White lost that debate. His ad-hominem attacks prove this to be the case.
How many Scriptures do I need to show you before you admit that the T.U.L.I.P. falls apart in the Light of Scripture?
Sincerely,
Louis Ruggiero
http://www.kingmessiahproject.com
Louis Ruggiero,
I have one question based upon the following paragraph:
The question is, then why does a Gentile even need Jesus? As long as they are not trying to obey the law–which is most likely a reference to the Mosaic Law Covenant and not just any law–then they should be fine right? Romans 3:9
specifically states that both the Jews and Gentiles are under sin and then 3:10 begins with the words “as it is written.” The texts cited in 3:10-18 take the Gentiles where they are, not under the law, as well as the Jews as they are, under the law. Romans 3:19-20
is about how no one can be justified by law-keeping. The OC was never intended to justify sinners. Thus the Jew is like the Gentile, unrighteous, not seeking and understanding and fearing God, and under God’s wrath (I would argue however that I would not use this to show inability on man’s part but rather every human being is justly condemned by God’s wrath with or without the Mosaic Law).
What frustrates myself (and I assume Dr. White) is not that Yahweh presents us with a choice to follow him and to fear him. I whole-heartedly agree that there is a choice to follow him or reject him. What frustrates us is that you (and others who share your perspective) do nothing to respond to the texts like John 8:34
and 1 Corinthians 2:14
where the Bible is stating that man is unable to choose to fear God because man is a slave to sin and he is unable to accept and discern that spiritual reality. To fear God is foolishness to the unregenerate. And it frustrates me (and Dr. White) when these texts are not addressed but rather yourself (like you do in the previous comments and in the cross-ex in the clip in the post) and others who share your perspective hop all over to other texts of the Bible rather than address the text presented. Dr. White specifically mentions John 8:34
and it was not addressed. Other texts were brought up. This seems to make the Bible self-contradicting because neither side (I am just as guilty of this as anyone one else is) will take the text presented and provide an exegesis of it. We all like to hop to our hobby-horses and ride them all the way to the barn. That is my frustration (and Dr. White’s as well, from what I have heard from him).