Think Wink.

Finals are finally over!!! Oh what a week it was too. One final had 14 essays to study for, the test had four of them and we had to write 2 pages each on two topics. I only studied for 12 essays so that I could answer at least two in any senario. Tonight’s test had a multiple choice section where answers were things like World Angle Wrestling Federation (WAWF) or studen’ts names. Simple but fun.

As I shared a couple of weeks ago, two Mormon missionaries came to my aunt’s door ready to share with me their gospel. I sat down with them and talked to them about what they believe and received a copy of the Book of Mormon to read. Now I have to confess, I did not get to read as much as I wanted to with my studies, sermon writing, and writing the Christmas program for my church–that is very fun by the way. We had agreed to meet up again and to just talk about different things about the Book of Mormon. Tuesday, they came by but I had to study for that final and know 12 of the 14 essays. So I asked them to come by today and they came.

After talking about some church history, we began to talk about the Book of Mormon. Here is what we discussed: believing in light of objective conviction vs. subjective conviction, the resurrection, the Trinity, Works+Grace vs. Grace alone. It was very interesting to say the least. Here is how the information exchanged went.

First the objectivity vs. subjectivity. I really wish I did a better job of explaining this but I really didn’t think about this until Johnny-on-the-spot. Here is what they told me. They believe the Book of Mormon to be true because they read it and prayed for God to tell them if it is true or not. They felt that the Spirit had told them it was true so they believe it. I have a small problem with that, but I don’t discredit that kind of faith because the Spirit must enlighten our minds to understand the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 2:14). But with the Bible, there are facts that we can check. The history of the Bible is very accurate; archaeology is only further supporting many of the OT and NT claims. We can check the science that the Bible puts forward; more and more scientists are abandoning evolution for Intelligent Design and Hank Hanaggraffe believes evolution is about done. I can read the arguments the NT puts forth for why I should trust Jesus. With that information in hand, I can see that to trust the Jesus of the Bible is not a blind leap of faith but a rational trust, a reasonable decision. Only a fool would not trust the Scriptures and the Jesus found there. But Mormons ask that we make a blind leap based on subjective feelings after a prayer with nothing to validate those feelings on. What is to stop me from changing tomorrow and no longer believe tomorrow what I believe today? With Christianity, there is an objective reality that doesn’t ever change. Therefore my heart can change but the truth of the Bible doesn’t and my trust in that won’t because of the rock called the Word of God found in the New and Old Testaments. It is just one problem with the Moroni challenge.

With regards to the resurrection, there was little or no disagreement on why we must be resurrected and what the resurrection is. Now I know that there are differences but we did not get into those differences. I talked about the whole point of a resurrected body was so that we can fully enjoy God’s beauty and perfections to the fullest, including our physical senses. But that is all that I can say on the resurrection.

Now with regards to the Trinity it is a different subject all together. I have to say that Mormonism is not the same as Christianity or a denomination in Christianity. Mormonism believes in the God called Father, who is a separate being from the God called Jesus, who is separate from the God called the Holy Spirit, who is separate from God the Father. Unlike Christianity, Mormonism teaches a tritheism. Thus their Jesus is not the same Jesus of Christianity, so I don’t consider them the same as Christianity. Now I asked them about John 1:1. There we learn that The Word was there from eternity past, he was with God, and that he was God. Now what many people don’t know is the literal reading of that last phrase in John 1:1. I says “and God was the Word.” God is the Word that is with God. The Word is God, yet he is distinct from God the Father. One elder asked me about the baptism of Jesus and I said I can see where you get three gods in that scene. However, I pointed out that Isaiah 45 says that there is only one God. I also pointed this out in Deuteronomy 6:4-5. Then I took them to Titus 2:13 (thank you Brad Andrews for your post at Theology of the Masses and bringing that text to mind) which says,

“waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ.”

My point in this text is simple. Paul calls Jesus Christ our great God and Savior. Now one could from the English text say yes he is God. But let me give you the literal reading of that phrase I italicized. It says, “the great God and savior our Jesus Christ.” That article there is used to denote that this is THE GOD. The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus is the God of heaven and earth, the creator and sustainer of all things. But also let me point out that in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the LXX, the term kurio is for Yahweh to show that he is Lord. Kurio is the Greek term that translates adown which means Lord (ex Psalm 8:1). It is the title of God. But in the New Testament, Jesus is called the Kurio. It is the same name. Jesus is given the name of the God of the OT every time that happens. Consider also that Jesus calls himself I AM in John 8:58 which is the name of Yahweh in Exodus 3:14. Jesus is the same God as the Father but a different person. I feel that this was an intersting piece of evidence that they hadn’t heard before.

I also want to make known that no matter how bad I wanted to, I did not once belittle the beliefs of these men because they were Mormon and I am Southern Baptist. I only politely asked them to explain and to account for the discrepancies that I found with what they were saying. I did not at any point call them names. They told me that they had met a lady that was anabaptist and she threw a verse in Revelation at them and shut the door. I don’t want to do that, I want to engage Mormons in honest discussions to understand what they believe and help them understand what I believe and see who is correct. One piece of belief they did not feel comfortable sharing with me because they didn’t know if I would shove it back in their faces. I will not do that because then I am not trying to have a conversation but I am trying to beat my Jesus over their heads and Jesus would not do that.

Now we come to Grace+works vs. Grace alone. My main problem came from reading Moroni 10:32,

Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.

First problem I have with this text is this “love God with all your might, mind and strength.” Deuteronomy 6:5 says, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.” Notice the difference here. Moroni leaves out the heart. Moroni does not call for a heart change. Deuteronomy does. Now let me add something to this. All three synoptic Gospels affirm Deuteronomy 6:5 as the greatest commandment. When Jesus says this in Matthew 22:37 he literally says to love God inside the heart, soul, and mind; Jesus leaves off any mention of our strength to do works. Jesus literally says in Mark 12:30 that we should love the Lord our God out of the heart, mind, soul, strength. In Luke 10:27 the command changes and says that we should love God out of our hearts in our minds, souls, and strength. Luke makes the heart the source of our love for God a heart issue. Matthew does the same thing. But Morni leaves this out? Why? If one removes the heart change, what distinguishes you from the Phrarisees of Jesus’ day? They loved the law and strived to be obedient and to repent when needed to. Jesus spent much of his ministry to refute that kind of external religion that is based upon works. Why all of a sudden change that? James 1:17 and Hebrews 13:8 says that God does not change. I see a contradiction that I think needs to be addressed if one will say that the God of the Bible is the same God of the Book of Mormon.

My second problem with Moroni 10:32 is found in the if-then clause of the verse. If you will deny ungodliness and love God with your deeds then you get grace. My problem comes in Romans 11:6; Ephesians 2:1-7; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9. All of these verses say one thing, it is not by works. All but Titus specifically say that we are saved by grace alone. Romans 11:6 says, “But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.” To say it is by works is to undo grace. If grace is unmerited favor, then Moroni does not speak of grace for what he speaks of is merrited. When I pressed the Mormon brothers on this, they had a very interesting reply. They spoke of common grace. That is, we are alive by the grace of God, we see sunsets by the grace of God, we have shelter by the grace of God. Yet people die under this grace. Only those who repent and trust in Jesus go to heaven. Yes that is true, but as the texts say, grace itself saves us and they absolutely rule out works at all. The grace in those passages is something different for this grace actually saves people as opposed to just letting them live on the planet. They asked how we get this grace? I said that it happens like in 2 Timothy 1:9, “[God] saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began.” It is God’s purpose to give me that grace, not my merrits and works. Otherwise it is not grace. What set me apart from the guy next to me in the pew when I accepted Jesus was God purposed for me to receive that grace and gave it to me as his gift (Romans 3:24; Romans 4:4-5). God did not give his grace to the person next to me. Why? Because of Romans 9:11 and God’s electing purpose that depends not on works but on God who calls. I owe my salvation to God’s grace which he gave to me as a gift and not to me. It all goes to the glory of God and I take no credit in my salvation.

You see in each of my two objections there is one common thread: man does not want to do anything to come to God. Hence we won’t deny ungodliness and we need a change of heart. Let me list some verses that you can click on to see for yourself that man won’t come to God on his own: Genesis 6:5 hearts are only evil; Genesis 8:21 evil hearts from youth; Jeremiah 17:1 and sin is engraved into the heart; Jeremiah 17:9 the heart deceives; Romans 3:9-12 the verbs seek, understand, and do are all active verbs; Romans 5:6-10 we are ungodly and enemies; Romans 8:6-8 the mind is hostile to God because it is of the flesh; 1 Corinthians 2:14 the natural and unregenerate mind does not understand and comprehend the Spirit of God; 2 Corinthians 4:3-4 we are blind to the gospel and are perishing; Ephesians 2:1-3 we are dead as sinners and chase after the devil and the world and our passions. If these verses are true, how can we possibly seek after and look for God? We are his enemy who seeks to flee from him and are dead to him. We need a miracle. Thus in Deuteronomy 30:6 God says he will cut away the sin from our hearts so that we will love him and live; Jeremiah 31:33-34 God will write his law upon our hearts so that we will obey him and know him; Ezekiel 36:26-27 God will remove our heart of stone for a heart of flesh and give us his Spirit to cause us to obey him. God must make us obey him and thus save us. We don’t deserve that, we can’t earn that because we don’t work for that but against that in our natural condition. God must do this for us to have a prayer. As Paul says in Romans 9:16, “So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.”

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