Two Unexpected Visitors
Posted by Hank on December 1st, 2006 filed in Evangelism/Missions, TheologyIf you have not been in Missouri the last few days, let me fill you in on what happened at least here in Kansas City. A major storm front moved in this past week. On Wednesday, freezing rain and sleet fell from the skies all afternoon. I was iced in and could not go to my classes on Thursday. The ice was so bad that my aunt didn’t get two houses down the street before her car was stuck. Thursday was the big snow here. The storm was very wierd. In North KC, Platte County where I am staying, did not get much snow. Once one got into the city and further south and east, the snow fall went from may be three inches if you had a lot to six inches is a light dusting. It was like you cross a line from no snow to tons of snow. It was wierd. I-70 west of Booneville to about Kingdom City was closed. Highway 63 was closed and my dad, who works for the state could not get to work. Highway 50 and 65 in Sedalia were closed down a well. My dad described the storm as a blizzard. Craziness dudes and dudettes.
As a result of the snow, my friday trek to Columbia had to be cancelled. I hope the road to Bunceton is clear so that I can have church. I was really bumbed out because I haven’t seen snow in over three years! When I was in Bolivar (and now KC) it would snow in Columbia. The snow would melt before I could get home. Once in Columbia, BOlivar would get hit and then the snow melts there before I could get there. So I, as a snow luver and desiring to live in Colorado someday, was depressed when I couldn’t go home to see the snow. My little cousin Tyler was coming home with his ADD Basenji breed, Bruno, to play with my main mut Augustise (Sorry Augustus Caesar, but mom’s will was unbreakable on that.) for the first time since my cousin first adopted Bruno.
To make due with the depression, Tyler and I hit up some Guitar Hero action. It is by far one of my favorite PS2 games of all time, period. In the middle of the action, the door bell rings. I said to Tyler, “Who is here now? I hope your mom [my aunt] and sister didn’t do something?” When I can see the door I see two people in black. I opened the door and guess what? Elders from the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints making social visits. Icy streets turned to melting icy streets and there they are going door to door. Crazy as they may be, you have to admire their determination.
I stand outside and speak with them a bit. They ask me if I was a Christian and I told them I am a Southern Baptist Pastor attending Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. I was even more impressed when that didn’t scare them off. They asked me what was my favorite part of being a Christian. I told them about the inexpressible beauty of Jesus Christ my God. We talked about the New Testament and all. I aske them their favorite miracle and they said (hehe), “The one where Jesus said take up your mat and walk to the pharisees or scribes. I don’t exactly.” But the guy had just finished a study on Jesus’ miracles. Funny how he couldn’t remember that it was when some friends lowered their paralytic friend through the roof to Jesus and Jesus tells the man that his sins are forgiven, and to show that he could forgiven sin, and to get up and walk. Funny.
They first asked me if I knew anything about Mormonism. Honestly, even though I have an aunt, uncle, and cousin who are Mormon, I really have spent much time studying Mormonism. I prefer the Bible and to know it so that when lies and falsehoods come over the horizon I know the truth to spot it. I said we at family get-togethers don’t really spend much time on religion because a.) we don’t see them as they live in Utah; b.) it could get very nasty as my cousin Frank went door-to-door as a Mormon evangelist and all the other grandsons (including those by marriage) are either pastors of some kind or a philosophy student; nasty. Then they ask if I had ever read the Book of Mormon. I answered with an honest, “No I haven’t.” So they gave me a copy and then we sat down and talked for about half-an-hour to forty-five minutes. I asked them questions about how it is that Jews could be the Native Americans (My great-grandmother was a full-bloodded Cherokee, I believe; hence my brother has such dark skin.). I asked also about how they define grace and plug in faith. There was lots of talk about obedience but not much grace, they sounded very legalistic. I asked them about Jesus Christ and who he is. They had a decent answer, I suppose. But one guy said that all of our sins were put on Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemene and that there Jesus became the Lamb of God that takes away the sins world. I called him out on that and the other guy (who had just finished the study on Jesus’ miracles but really didn’t know them) piped up and said no we take that back. I asked them how can we know that Joseph Smith translated these “golden plates” correctly. With the Bible I can look at the Greek and know if my transation is accurate. They said that the plates have been taken back but that there are eleven witnesses to Smith’s work. The guy who said Jesus became the Lamb of God in the Garden said that he was grateful for only one translation so that there was no need for language studies. Sounds kinda fishy to me.
Mainly I tried to ask questions, may be no the best to defeat Mormonism, and listened to them. We agreed to meet again on Tuesday to talk more and I got a phone number to one of the Elders. I desparately want to share the gospel with these men. A gospel of Jesus Christ and his glory and to save our souls and put us in relationship with Yahweh. Pray that I ask the right questions on Tuesday and that the Holy Spirit will guard me and will save souls in that meeting.
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:04 am
Interesting blog entry here. I came upon it through a Google e-mail alert I get for “Latter-day Saints.” I’m a member of that church, and have also been on a church mission, mine in Europe, years ago. But I was interested to read a candid reaction of the other side of the equation, and your experience with the missionaries you met.
I kinda hesitated to write/comment on here, but figured “Why not?” You don’t know me, and I’m not even there in person as those Elders are, or other members in your area, who are in a better position to discuss stuff with you, so I’m really in no better position to be a more credible source or anything, but I could just be another, different point of contact about the whole subject. I live up in New Hampshire, where we got the cold of the storm that dumped snow on you there, but none of the snow itself.
One thought I would mention, as you prepare for the appointment with the missionaries you mentioned, is that learning about the church and Book of Mormon and all is not about the Elders themselves, but about the church and its doctrine and gospel. It’s not called “The church of certain Elders” or even the church of our living prophet or 12 apostles, but The Church of Jesus Christ (and because it’s in later times than when Christ first set up His church, “of Latter-day Saints”). Granted, missionaries who are called and set apart to travel away from home at their own expense and share the gospel with people have a solemn responsibility to know their stuff and behave appropriately, but they’re still just the messenger, not the proof or the message.
I think you got to the crux of the issue when you asked how we can know if Joseph Smith translated the plates correctly. The whole question turns upon Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, as well as on the fruits of the church itself. Individual members (and missionaries) are imperfect and will stumble, but what is the message and record of the church Joseph Smith helped to organize in 1830, and what does the church teach and do today?
I glanced at a few other entries on your blog, and I don’t think that I would be able to debate or convince you point-by-point in doctrine and theology (though I do enjoy considering some of those deeper points) but what the church shares with the world is the Book of Mormon that the missionaries left with you. One thing that I also loved about being a full-time missionary for those two years (and trying to still share the gospel with people all the time) is that we don’t ask people to take our word for it, but we place the Book of Mormon in their hands and ask them to read it themselves and ask God themselves if it’s true or not, and make decisions based on their own feelings and direct communication with God. Academia is great, but is necessarily limited by our own minds and ideas. As you know, when God and Christ want to teach of their divine, higher ways, it needs to come from them, as higher beings, through the Holy Ghost or Spirit. Perhaps they began to discuss this with you already, but this is the method by which we share the message: read, pray, and act upon the answers to your prayers, rather than a solely academic or intellectual discussion of the matter.
I’m sorry for rambling on so much. But it’s obviously something I/we all feel strongly about — our relationship with God, and religion as a whole. And while it is, ultimately, very simple, it can also be easily misunderstood, as we can see by the many divisions and contentions among people and churches, even within the general category of Christianity. I guess you’ve got my e-mail through this comment, and I’d be happy to hear back from and correspond with you as much or as little as you might like. I hope that things go well when you meet with the missionaries again!
A fellow Christian,
Dave Hersam
December 3rd, 2006 at 7:02 am
You don’t know me – I just happened upon your blog – but I also happen to be of the LDS faith. I admire your faith in God. The world is better with men like you believing in the Great Almighty.
That being said, there are a few things that you must understand about the Mormon missionaries.
1. The church deliberately sends young men (19-25) on missions. Some are more knowledgeable than others. They do not spend years in formal seminaries and many do not receive advanced degrees in religion, because they will never be paid for doing so. Not even BYU offers an undergraduate degree in religion. Far be it from me to make apologies, that is not my intent. I just wanted to give you a background. It truly saddens and surprises me that the Elders did not remember that particular miracle.
2. Yes, the Mormon faith stresses obedience. “If you Love Me, Keep my Commandments.” (John 14:15
). Mormons also believe in Grace – but some understand it less than I’d like to admit. If you ask the elders how one is saved, they’ll likely respond that Jesus saves us, “after all we can do.” This is found in the Book of Mormon. Personally, I view it this way. Christ beckons us to return to him. We come to him in faith – with humble heart. We partake in the ordinances and make covenants with him (particularly covenants to obey his Commandments) so that we can be closer to him and more like him. How can He save you in sin? How can the rich man (Luke 16
) be saved, when he refuses to part with his riches as the Lord had asked?
This being said, remaining sinless while human is virtually impossible. This is where the principle of repentance enters in. We repent and forsake – and ask the Lord to forgive our shortcomings. This repentance is, “all that we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23), because we understand the Jesus has absolute discretion.
In a nutshell: We come to the Lord in faith. We are saved by His Grace, through obedience.
I wish you the best, thanks for the stimulating blog post.
December 3rd, 2006 at 10:06 pm
I did not think that anyone from the LDS church would respond or even read this post. I hope you felt that I was respectful, though I am fallible and sinful. After all, I stand condemned in Adam and have received his nature to sin. It excites me to also see my blog being read across the nation. Now I would like to very much continue this discussion both here on the blog and in email so don’t be surprised if I email you. So I want to take time to respond to your comments.
First I must say that I have high regards for the two men who came to talk to me. I thought that telling them I was a Southern Baptist pastor attending Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary would scare them off, against my hopes. But they did not run but pursued the dialogue to my relief. I was very impressed by that courage. I respect these men, and other like them, in view of this courage and feel that many more of my Baptist brothers could learn a lesson from them, as well as myself.
I would first like to respond to Dave since his comments were posted first. I enjoyed reading what you called “ramblings” as they were insightful. I do understand and agree with you that it is not the “Church of the Two Elders” but the Church of Latter-day Saints. These men are not the proof of the validity of the translation of the Mormon holy writings. The message of the gospel, whether Mormon or Southern Baptist or Charismatic does not stand or fall with those who preach it but upon the God who is behind it.
If you have read my posts, an academic knowledge is not just mere knowledge to me, it is how I connect with the Bible. Prayerful study of Scripture includes an academic reading of the original languages and examining the arguments the Scripture presents to me. But we stand and fall in our knowledge of the Scriptures for from that knowledge of the Bible or Book of Mormon comes our knowledge of God and Christ the Savior of all mankind. To understand the doctrines is to understand the God of those doctrines, for that is the heart of the matter. God grounds our faith in him through doctrine. Why can I not fear death and not succombe to sin, because of the doctrine of the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. I have Christ’s righteousness and therefore I can look death right in the eye and not even blink because I understand that this doctrine says I have a perfect righteousness that is not my own and I can trust. It is this doctrine that communicates this truth and grounds the command to not fear or to not present my members as instruments of sin. I only seek the heart of God’s word. Paul told the Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians 2:13
, “But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”
Sarah, I want to speak to now. I must confess a little thing that is really stupid. When I saw your name I thought you were someone else and I was a little nervous about what was going to be commented here. You asked the question, “How can He save you in sin? How can the rich man (Luke 16
) be saved, when he refuses to part with his riches as the Lord had asked?” In the text, the answer is that the rich man should have believed the words of Moses. His family would be saved from the rich man’s fate and receive that of Lazarus’ fate if they would believe Moses’ Law. However Jesus also said, “Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” In order to hear God you must be of God. Or to put it in Jesus words to Nicodemus in John 3:6
, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” That which is born of the flesh is flesh and thus loves the flesh and those who are born of the Spirit by the power of God love the things of the Spirit (Romans 8:5-8, 1
Corinthians 2:14
).
You also put forth a very excellent verse to support you position in John 14:15
, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” But the question must be asked, from where do we get the love for God when we love darkness and not the light (John 3:19
)? Isn’t that answer found in our regeneration described in Deuteronomy 30:6
?
You summarized your soteriology (theology of salvation) neatly and consisely when you said “We come to the Lord in faith. We ar saved by his Grace, through obedience.” I ask you, as well as all who are in the Mormon Church, does not this contradict Ephesians 2:8-10
, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them”? Paul echoes v.5 when it is by grace that we are saved. But he says through faith, not obedience. This salvation by grace received through faith is not of us but God’s gift. It is not from works so that we can’t boast. Rather we are created by God in Christ to do good works, created unto good works not by good works. I am curious as to how you might respond to this quesiton.
I challenge you both with Ezekiel 36:26-27
and Jeremiah 31:33-34
. In order to bring about the obedience that is required, God promises to first change the hearts of his covenant people, his chosen people, his elect people. He loves them so much that he leaves this not up to them to sort out but takes it upon himself to bring about the obedience that he requires. He freely, graciously gives us that gift of faith and obedience. That is how much he loved me. He put Jesus on the cross for me that the penalty for my sins would be perfectly paid, that God’s awful wrath be turned upon Jesus that he might be just and justifier of me who trusts Jesus. He loved me enough to then give me his Spirit to regenerate me and to bring about that repentance, to bring about that faith, to make possible the obedience that I in my sin did not nor could not seek.
I deeply appreciate this dialogue with you both, Dave and Sarah. I think, if you don’t mind, I will email you some questions that I have. “Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen” (Ephesians 3:20-21
).
December 4th, 2006 at 10:15 am
I may be entering the never-ending blog! What a great discussion and respectful dialogue. I am a friend of Hank’s and I am blessed by your willingness to discuss the faith with the two gentlemen who visited you and with those that connected through cyberspace. To Dave and Sarah, thanks for respectful and thoughtful insights and comments. I, with Hank, understand the New Testament to teach that we are saved from sin through faith in Jesus Christ preceded by “the Father drawing” us (John 6:44
) and that we are incapable of even turning to Him without this drawing (Romans 3:10-11
). To answer how could God save us in our sin, I would say this is the only way we need a Savior. If we are capable of remaining pure on our own then we need no Savior. If human perfection is possible at all, even though very nearly impossible, then it is only a question of dedication and early education to have a perfect human being with no need of a Savior. I believe the Bible leads us to the correct understanding. Human perfection is impossible without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We therefore need Christ to save us “while we were yet sinners.” (Rom 5:8
) He saves us out of our sin. This is what is meant by “save,” we are in danger, indeed dead in our sins, and Christ brings us to life and eternal safety. All that is acceptable to Him is faith which is all we are capable of giving in our sin. Of course, obedience is expected once we are saved. A grateful heart leading us to obedience is the only appropriate response to so great a salvation. But if we work toward it then “grace would no longer be grace.” (Rom 11:6
)
It bears repeating that the goal is not argument or exclusion but that everyone might put their faith in Christ alone for salvation. I also would like to pose one question? As I, like Hank, am woefully ignorant of the LDS faith and the Book of Mormon, I would like to know what the LDS teaching on Jesus’ nature is. As a Southern Baptist, our teaching is that He is the God-man. That is, He is perfectly and completely human while at the same time being perfectly and completely divine. He also forms the Trinity with the Father and the Holy Spirit who are all eternal, equal in nature, yet distinct in person. This is a mystery which human minds cannot completely comprehend but how does the LDS doctrine compare to this?
November 28th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
[...] to opportunity to speak and engage some Mormon missionaries here in KC Northland (Read my two posts Two Unexpected Visitors and The Visitors Return for my summary of the events). Shortly after that, I received two emails [...]