It bears repeating that the goal is not argument or exclusion but that everyone might put their faith in Christ alone for salvation. I also would like to pose one question? As I, like Hank, am woefully ignorant of the LDS faith and the Book of Mormon, I would like to know what the LDS teaching on Jesus’ nature is. As a Southern Baptist, our teaching is that He is the God-man. That is, He is perfectly and completely human while at the same time being perfectly and completely divine. He also forms the Trinity with the Father and the Holy Spirit who are all eternal, equal in nature, yet distinct in person. This is a mystery which human minds cannot completely comprehend but how does the LDS doctrine compare to this?

First I must say that I have high regards for the two men who came to talk to me. I thought that telling them I was a Southern Baptist pastor attending Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary would scare them off, against my hopes. But they did not run but pursued the dialogue to my relief. I was very impressed by that courage. I respect these men, and other like them, in view of this courage and feel that many more of my Baptist brothers could learn a lesson from them, as well as myself.

I would first like to respond to Dave since his comments were posted first. I enjoyed reading what you called “ramblings” as they were insightful. I do understand and agree with you that it is not the “Church of the Two Elders” but the Church of Latter-day Saints. These men are not the proof of the validity of the translation of the Mormon holy writings. The message of the gospel, whether Mormon or Southern Baptist or Charismatic does not stand or fall with those who preach it but upon the God who is behind it.

If you have read my posts, an academic knowledge is not just mere knowledge to me, it is how I connect with the Bible. Prayerful study of Scripture includes an academic reading of the original languages and examining the arguments the Scripture presents to me. But we stand and fall in our knowledge of the Scriptures for from that knowledge of the Bible or Book of Mormon comes our knowledge of God and Christ the Savior of all mankind. To understand the doctrines is to understand the God of those doctrines, for that is the heart of the matter. God grounds our faith in him through doctrine. Why can I not fear death and not succombe to sin, because of the doctrine of the imputation of Christ’s righteousness. I have Christ’s righteousness and therefore I can look death right in the eye and not even blink because I understand that this doctrine says I have a perfect righteousness that is not my own and I can trust. It is this doctrine that communicates this truth and grounds the command to not fear or to not present my members as instruments of sin. I only seek the heart of God’s word.  Paul told the Thessalonians in 2 Thessalonians 2:13, “But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.”

Sarah, I want to speak to now. I must confess a little thing that is really stupid. When I saw your name I thought you were someone else and I was a little nervous about what was going to be commented here. You asked the question, “How can He save you in sin? How can the rich man (Luke 16) be saved, when he refuses to part with his riches as the Lord had asked?”  In the text, the answer is that the rich man should have believed the words of Moses.  His family would be saved from the rich man’s fate and receive that of Lazarus’ fate if they would believe Moses’ Law.  However Jesus also said, “Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”  In order to hear God you must be of God.  Or to put it in Jesus words to Nicodemus in John 3:6, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”  That which is born of the flesh is flesh and thus loves the flesh and those who are born of the Spirit by the power of God love the things of the Spirit (Romans 8:5-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14).

You also put forth a very excellent verse to support you position in John 14:15, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” But the question must be asked, from where do we get the love for God when we love darkness and not the light (John 3:19)? Isn’t that answer found in our regeneration described in Deuteronomy 30:6?

You summarized your soteriology (theology of salvation) neatly and consisely when you said “We come to the Lord in faith. We ar saved by his Grace, through obedience.” I ask you, as well as all who are in the Mormon Church, does not this contradict Ephesians 2:8-10, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them”? Paul echoes v.5 when it is by grace that we are saved. But he says through faith, not obedience. This salvation by grace received through faith is not of us but God’s gift. It is not from works so that we can’t boast. Rather we are created by God in Christ to do good works, created unto good works not by good works. I am curious as to how you might respond to this quesiton.

I challenge you both with Ezekiel 36:26-27 and Jeremiah 31:33-34. In order to bring about the obedience that is required, God promises to first change the hearts of his covenant people, his chosen people, his elect people. He loves them so much that he leaves this not up to them to sort out but takes it upon himself to bring about the obedience that he requires. He freely, graciously gives us that gift of faith and obedience. That is how much he loved me. He put Jesus on the cross for me that the penalty for my sins would be perfectly paid, that God’s awful wrath be turned upon Jesus that he might be just and justifier of me who trusts Jesus. He loved me enough to then give me his Spirit to regenerate me and to bring about that repentance, to bring about that faith, to make possible the obedience that I in my sin did not nor could not seek.

I deeply appreciate this dialogue with you both, Dave and Sarah. I think, if you don’t mind, I will email you some questions that I have. “Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen” (Ephesians 3:20-21).

That being said, there are a few things that you must understand about the Mormon missionaries.
1. The church deliberately sends young men (19-25) on missions. Some are more knowledgeable than others. They do not spend years in formal seminaries and many do not receive advanced degrees in religion, because they will never be paid for doing so. Not even BYU offers an undergraduate degree in religion. Far be it from me to make apologies, that is not my intent. I just wanted to give you a background. It truly saddens and surprises me that the Elders did not remember that particular miracle.

2. Yes, the Mormon faith stresses obedience. “If you Love Me, Keep my Commandments.” (John 14:15). Mormons also believe in Grace – but some understand it less than I’d like to admit. If you ask the elders how one is saved, they’ll likely respond that Jesus saves us, “after all we can do.” This is found in the Book of Mormon. Personally, I view it this way. Christ beckons us to return to him. We come to him in faith – with humble heart. We partake in the ordinances and make covenants with him (particularly covenants to obey his Commandments) so that we can be closer to him and more like him. How can He save you in sin? How can the rich man (Luke 16) be saved, when he refuses to part with his riches as the Lord had asked?

This being said, remaining sinless while human is virtually impossible. This is where the principle of repentance enters in. We repent and forsake – and ask the Lord to forgive our shortcomings. This repentance is, “all that we can do” (2 Nephi 25:23), because we understand the Jesus has absolute discretion.

In a nutshell: We come to the Lord in faith. We are saved by His Grace, through obedience.

I wish you the best, thanks for the stimulating blog post.

I kinda hesitated to write/comment on here, but figured “Why not?” You don’t know me, and I’m not even there in person as those Elders are, or other members in your area, who are in a better position to discuss stuff with you, so I’m really in no better position to be a more credible source or anything, but I could just be another, different point of contact about the whole subject. I live up in New Hampshire, where we got the cold of the storm that dumped snow on you there, but none of the snow itself.

One thought I would mention, as you prepare for the appointment with the missionaries you mentioned, is that learning about the church and Book of Mormon and all is not about the Elders themselves, but about the church and its doctrine and gospel. It’s not called “The church of certain Elders” or even the church of our living prophet or 12 apostles, but The Church of Jesus Christ (and because it’s in later times than when Christ first set up His church, “of Latter-day Saints”). Granted, missionaries who are called and set apart to travel away from home at their own expense and share the gospel with people have a solemn responsibility to know their stuff and behave appropriately, but they’re still just the messenger, not the proof or the message.

I think you got to the crux of the issue when you asked how we can know if Joseph Smith translated the plates correctly. The whole question turns upon Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, as well as on the fruits of the church itself. Individual members (and missionaries) are imperfect and will stumble, but what is the message and record of the church Joseph Smith helped to organize in 1830, and what does the church teach and do today?

I glanced at a few other entries on your blog, and I don’t think that I would be able to debate or convince you point-by-point in doctrine and theology (though I do enjoy considering some of those deeper points) but what the church shares with the world is the Book of Mormon that the missionaries left with you. One thing that I also loved about being a full-time missionary for those two years (and trying to still share the gospel with people all the time) is that we don’t ask people to take our word for it, but we place the Book of Mormon in their hands and ask them to read it themselves and ask God themselves if it’s true or not, and make decisions based on their own feelings and direct communication with God. Academia is great, but is necessarily limited by our own minds and ideas. As you know, when God and Christ want to teach of their divine, higher ways, it needs to come from them, as higher beings, through the Holy Ghost or Spirit. Perhaps they began to discuss this with you already, but this is the method by which we share the message: read, pray, and act upon the answers to your prayers, rather than a solely academic or intellectual discussion of the matter.

I’m sorry for rambling on so much. But it’s obviously something I/we all feel strongly about — our relationship with God, and religion as a whole. And while it is, ultimately, very simple, it can also be easily misunderstood, as we can see by the many divisions and contentions among people and churches, even within the general category of Christianity. I guess you’ve got my e-mail through this comment, and I’d be happy to hear back from and correspond with you as much or as little as you might like. I hope that things go well when you meet with the missionaries again!

A fellow Christian,

Dave Hersam